when sponsees are dishonest

[dmbson]

my question involves a grandsponsee. she told her sponsor (my sponsee) that she (purposely) ate a marijuana brownie in october (people places things still the same). however, she claims she is not an addict, only an alcoholic. thing is, she hasn't had a drink since last may. she will soon be claiming one year of sobriety, and since we have no opinion on outside issues, technically, this is true. my sponsee wanted to know what to do about this, on the day she claims one year. i told her (checked with my sponsor on this one, she agrees) that a 24 hour coin, and a cake that says "keep coming back" are appropriate. this girl is vehement with us on the fact that she's "not an addict!!!!" and she is very very angry that we would consider this a relapse, which is too bad. she doesn't get the honest part of this.
what:confused: would you do?

[dalin]

That is why I do NA.
I see it as a form of escape.
One of my deals as a sponsor is to build up good relations with my sponsorship
network.
We all talk about honesty.
We talk about the disease of addiction,and how it wants us to die,no matter
what we use.

[dmbson]

ideally, that would be the case. for this woman, it is not. the first suggestion in this case was to go to NA. she is one of those alcoholics that still thinks of addicts as somehow different "i'm not one of THOSE, i won't go there".
hence, the question. she is free to announce her year, heck, she can lie and say she has 20. we can't stop her, bc she isn't practicing even the first principle of the first step. i'm just wondering if anyone else has had this happen, and what they have done.
she hasn't had a drink in a year, but has purposely ingested a mind altering substance. sticky situation.

[dalin]

Well,God takes the score.
At times all we can do is be willing untill she is truly ready.
Just hang in there and be real for you.
Eventualy things will turn.

[CD BUCKBERRY]

:smile:dmbson,Eating that brownie is using no two ways about it.The person should be honest and get the white keytag,if not the question is what else are they are they in denial about?You are right in thinking that they don't deserve the one year celebration.Using is using,denial is denial,honesty is being honest about everything in your recovery.:smile:

[kaistevens]

I've had sponsees lie, and I knew they were lying.:cool:
Not only is it out of my control, but it is none of my business.
One girl would always say, "I swear it's the truth..." or "I promise"
or "I'm not lying". :1:

Finally one day, this is what I said to her:
"Baby, you don't have to convince me of anything,:251:
If you say it is true, then for all I know it is.:251:
I'm not handing out a grade at the end of the
semester. :1::9:
I am not your judge, jury, mom, or boss.
This is your sobriety.

What I know that I know is this:
If I am not entirely honest, about everything,
this program will not work for me,
I will not stay sober,
I will know, and my Higher Power will know,
and it is a proven fact, that when people in this
program are not honest, this does not work for them.

It does not matter what you do, or do not, convince
me of. You may convince me, and your mom, and a
judge and jury, and everyone at the treatment center;
but the truth is always the truth, it is what it is, no
matter what I believe.
And, this is YOUR life or death, not mine. I have had
to get honest in my program, or die. If you chose not
to be honest with me, it won't get me drunk."

That was a little over a year ago.
Funny thing, she called me about a week ago, wanting
a guys # of all things. And she was making promises
to me again. I told her, "you don't have to promise me
anything, you are grown, this is your life, I'm not judging
you, and you don't need my approval."

Now, as far as giving a chip, well I guess that is where
"To thine own self be true." comes in.

I am Manic-Depressive (as referred in one of the forwards
of BB), and I have to take medication every day to manage
it. There was a man in my original home group who
:9: "would not recognize" my sobriety because of the medications. To
the point that he did not attend the meeting the night I got
my year chip.
Funny thing, before my next birthday, he developed some
health problems of his own, and had to take medication.
He came to my 2nd birthday. I guess he decided I was sober,
didn't change my life a drop.

She may have to find out she is an addict the hard way. Happens
all the time, people thinking they are one and not the other. Almost
killed my husband, but he learned, hopefully your sponsee won't have
to find the bottom he did.

Love ya later. Kai

[shrubbery]

In the end it is we who must go to sleep at night, we must meditate with our higher power and accept whatever grace and mercy is given. My higher power would not allow me to enjoy getting pain killers; even when I was in the hospital. My HP did not let me forget that I had arrested the drugs influence so when the IV's were gone so was the problem.

I work NA with the knowledge that autonomy and soverenigty are our own personal issues. As a sponsor I can only make an example of my life to my addict/alcoholic sponsee I do not allow the temptation to advise.

My expertise is in my evidence of the way I live my life in recovery, and what I have done to gain my experience through the application of the 12 steps, traditions, and concepts.

Recently a home group member who had celebrated 5 months got up to announce she now had one day. This was not a relapse she stated, since she had under doctors care taken methadone for the previous time period and had been slowly weened off of it. This was a continuation of her use of the program to have a desire to stop using.

I know that replacement drugs is a "big issue" and has been for a long time in NA, but this person, was cheered on in her honesty to start a new lifestyle. Was she wrong to state for the previous 5 months she was "clean"? I never have the RESPONSIBILITY, RIGHT, OR DUTY to decide who is clean only they and their higher power can make that decision. ONLY I MYSELF CAN DECLARE MYSELF AN ALCOHOLIC OR ADDICT. If that becomes untrue than the program is not worth the paper it is written upon, or the lives it has helped to change.

For explanation of this please refer to the following text---> It Works How & Why
pg 100-101.:
"While our sponsor will provide us with guidance, we must apply the principles of the program for ourselves and arrive at our own decision. In the end, we are the ones who must live with our conscience. In order to do so comfortably, we must decide what is, and what is not, morally acceptable in our lives."

I got out of the worrying about another's honesty years ago, the difference between using a substance is like the difference between using a gun and a bow. If I can not see the arrow strung with the bow I know I can still be beaten by the bow. If I cannot see the bullet, or do not know if the firing pin is in place I do not know if the gun will harm me. But it's presence against my flesh as a hammer can be harmful. I try not to have the tendency to have high expectations of others.

My sponsor taught me that to be self-righteous and supercritical of others is one of the quickest ways to create a resentment. I need to develop self-discipline not other-discipline. I had a sponsee who had never heard the last (2nd part) of How it Works, and therefore he did not realize alcohol was a drug. He was very suprised when he found out, but with all honesty he changed his clean date once he became aware that he needed to change. I believe that is the essence of the tenth step ... even if it has worked up to yesterday, if it need changed - not just a new layer of duct tape, thank you HP I will live in the change and embrace the change.

Peace

[Victoriana]

Ok. I'll play devil's advocate here. (I spend my working life doing just this).
What was the young lady's goal? Was it to be free of alcohol or of everything? Has she kept to her goal of alcohol sobriety?
She was honest in telling her sponsor about the brownie. Should she be penalized for her honesty? It would have been hard for her to be that honest knowing she would be punished.
Is she simply angry because you are playing with semantics? "The only qualification is the desire not to drink"?

Now, I agree with you but she obviously has a different idea of her goals. I take medications for illness but would be very upset if my sobriety was questioned. I take them voluntarily on my doctors suggestion. The fact that they come from a legal dealer (doctor or pharmacist) makes no difference.
Personally, I would give her a birthday as she wishes with the stipulation that she makes an open statement about the brownie and her goals in sobriety.
I hope this helps. I understand your frustration and would hate to be in your situation.
Good luck and be well. Thank you also for making me think.

[sioux]

If I believe a sponsee is lying to me, I let them know that I cannot help them unless they are willing to be honest with themselves. I remember my own capacity for honesty when I got sober....it was half the size of a thimble!

I don't put more into it than they are willing to put forward themselves. There are plenty of folks, women especially, that want and need what we have to offer by way of sponsorship, and those are the gals I want to work with.

We give them the flight directions; eventually they will take the wheel and either fly, land, or sit in the hanger. That's it.

[dalin]

I am an addict.
She could use other fellowships steps to rationalise...
NA wont let me live in denial today........thank God

[skyhook]

I'm not an active sponsor, nor am I an expert in any book of rules, but I'll wade in with my water wings of common sense.

If all the issues are accurately presented here, then why push the legalistic view and hardline this person ? Why alienate her on a one time technicality ?

If AA and NA are not seperate than what is the point? Just merge and simplify.<_____ (insert sarcasm)

She entered a program and defined alcohol as her poison, has abstained for 12 months and has accomplished an incredibly difficult time milestone. Does withholding a pin, change that ? Of course not, so why insinuate it, by making an example out of her.

Keepers of the gate can explain the issues to her and the group, present the pin and let her deal with it and answer to the group over time.

She will get the message and her pin, and you as the sponsor will get browny points for not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Starlight]

I have never attended an AA meeting, nor have I done the 12 steps.
I used to do drugs on a recreational basis, and ended up quitting them altogether, but it was more because I grew tired of how they made me feel. Quitting, or should I say, not doing drugs was not a big deal for me.
However, drinking & smoking was. And I think of them both as an addiction that I had to conquer. I'm coming close to being 2 years alcohol-free & 3 years nicotine-free. These 2 quits are separate entities to me, even though as a package they are the foundation blocks of a new life I have decided to make for myself. If I smoked a cigarette or some pot, or did some drug... that would not in any way alter my sobriety time..only having a drink will do that. It would however, affect what I call my 'clean' time... the time that I have been totally free of all mind-altering substances.

IMO, celebrate this woman's 1 year of sobriety...she has put in the same amount of time in staying away from the drink with or without that brownie.
Maybe this is why I never have attended meetings... there is no way that I would ever want someone else's judgement affect how I feel about my accomplishment. Her 1 year sobriety milestone should be a day of celebrating her strength & determination of staying alcohol-free for 12 whole months...give her the recognition that she deserves for that hard work.

[dalin]

Thank God that they are seperate with there own traditions and literature...where'
do you live...must be a small town.