my brothers keeper...to be or not to be

[skyhook]

I have many favorite reads around here (Sioux, CraigA, JayBee, Rockin Big Daddy, Big Al and more come to mind...) and appreciate their opinions. The question I have for them and anyone else who would like to chime in is this:

How to distinguish between reading someone elses inventory and calling them out on stupid bs ?. I tend to call it the way I see it wherever I am, but remain sensative enough to the 12 steps to know that my opinion is only validated in my world..., not necessarily someone elses, for we all are at different places in time and experience.

I mean, I hear a subtle mismash of intent sometimes , but accountability to one and another begins with an agreement between two people giving permission to comment, exhort or rebuke (like the sponsor/sponsee relationship). In other words, does that foundational agreement need to exist (in some form) before we can apply our opinion on another ?

Frankly, even with such an understanding or covenant, there still exists the possibility of misunderstanding between the two, particularly the one who is following the advice of another. How much more so, then, when permission has not been granted to speak into anothers life ?

There are many times when speaking of our own experience is enough of a platform to make a point. On the other hand, there are times when the obvious needs to be said and delivered directly to the person who needs to hear it, regardless of permission.

What do you all think ?

[Jay Bee]

First thing first, let me say thank you to you, for those kind words. I always wonder and always second guess myself about what i post here, and you just let me know that its ok, and for that I thank you my brother:15:. Now im going to try to answer the QUESTION: When i first come around, what attracted me was someones else's story....I use to hear it , then share it like it was orginal....I use the rooms as my stage, they laugh and said wow that was deep, only to return home feeling ****up! The sponsor I had before told me it's not about sounding good, it's about recovery. When I started the work I started to get a better understanding on the Who, What, How, and Why of the program. It would be a LIE, if i said i do not take other people inventory, but what i do different is, I sit on my hands, not to rasie them. This is one of the many gifts i receive in RECOVERY, the ability to have some awareness on my Self-Centeredness.

[sioux]

My experience is that often people will come to their own conclusions whether or not I get to share my experience on the subject matter, and that is better because maybe they have listened to their Creator's directives. Of course, I believe G-d works through our community, but I have to be careful with my opinions because like you said, misunderstanding accounts for probably a great deal more of conflict that we can really know.

Additionally, I have to ask myself how much energy and time I want to spend on any given person or situation, keeping reserve for myself, my family, the things that are really important. How important is it really? Am I just trying to win a useless argument? Is walking away now the best way to preserve my sanity and peace of mind?

We have someone right now in our local area that is engaging in an extramarital affair with a chronic relapser. She is new, she has a husband and two kids, yet her caretaking defects have put her in the middle of another person's disease rather than focusing on herself. What can I say other than answer her question directly....the AA Program has taught me how to be responsible to myself and to others, honest with myself and others, faithful to a principled lifestyle. I know if I cheat on my husband he will leave me; if I rob my children's piggy banks they could arrest me and I would lose their respect....what more can one say to help another person realize that we all must suffer or enjoy the rewards of our behaviors?

Everyone has their threshold for pain. I know what mine is.

I can pray for others to have the awareness of themselves, their choices. That is an amazing tool right there that takes me out of the equation and puts a power greater than me into that person's life.

[skyhook]

<snip>...Additionally, I have to ask myself how much energy and time I want to spend on any given person or situation, keeping reserve for myself, my family, the things that are really important. How important is it really? Am I just trying to win a useless argument? Is walking away now the best way to preserve my sanity and peace of mind.<snip>

This is really important statement.

Doing a "driveby read of someones need"
does them a dis-service and puts the shooter in position of having to explain themselves quickly and in time to get back to the batcave before dusk...(or is that vampires ) :mrgreen:

[BIG AL]

Maybe I misunderstand this but I am certainly glad people didnt think of my feelings and waited for my permisiion to give me feed back becouse I would be dead now.I think anytime people are in meetings an forum put a topic out there they are alowwing permission to get opinions.And that is what they are opinions.Not to say that we do need to be sensitive to peopel share only our experience,strenght,and hope.The problem comes in is when someone is sharing the wrong message.I whole hearted believe that people often die from this disease becouse they are often misguided by false recovery by people are not working the steps or any type of program.For example,I was in a meeting about a Yr ago and the chair person says.Yall told me when I would be ready to work the step I have about a yr sober and think I am about ready.People nodded there head.I almost feel out of my chair.So I says when it was time for someone to bring up a topic that this is freakin crazy.If I waited till I was ready I would of freakin died.At times I think that we are to worrried about hurting feelings rather than saving lives.But this is the hardline of recovery that was taking with me and it worked for me.A big book thumpping sponsor who took no **** from me.I think as we start to sponsor people we do learn that you cant do this with everyone.This is a indivivual basis on taking a line with working the steps.Ultimatley we are here to carry a message of hope to those who still suffer.I do most times admit to taken a hard line with those who do relapse over and over.I tend to write them off.I wasnt however writen off and I was a chronic relapser so go figure.Someone mentioned ego there it is bigger than **** in me.I will say that I have never had a sponsee since the 6 yrs I been sober make it more than a yr.I really would love one success story but it hasnt happen.The big book says we are hard on ourselves and easy on others.this is a good topic.

[Rocket2d4]

well...alki/addicts dosn't follow directions very well to begin with. Giving advice to alki/addicts would mean I'm more insane.lmao

Old timer with time that conner newcomers with the
blahh..blahhh..blaahhh. Do this and do that, have memory lost of how it was and where they came from.lol

You don't have to do anything in AA/NA. There's no rules in AA/NA.
It's freedom at the core.. That's the attraction and not promoting.

HAHAHAHA...most if not all of my sponsors will not
give me advice in anything that I do.
At first it sounded really retarded to me. I wanted
my sponsor to make decisions for me..
WHY???? That's my old ways of living. All my life
I've been told how to live, think,feel, and belive.
This way I can blame him and have an excuse to go
out and use if it didn't trun out right....
It'll be his fualt becuase it didn't work.lmao

They were teaching me and giving something very important. Me !!!! To grow up, learn how to make my own decisions. Learn from my unwise decisions. Being accountiable and responsible at the very core of my being. Setting me free. The blame game stops.
When i make unwise decisions and suffer the consiquences
and grasp it.. really grasp it. I make better decisions
the next time. Learning to forgive myself, building
my confidence/selfesteem. My sponsor dosn't redicue
me nor judge me. He just loves me. He encourage me
It's about as close as i can get to unconditional love which
is my conception of a HP in the flesh and blood.

It comes back to the 3 step....truning my will and my life
to a HP of MY UNDERSTRANDING. Make my own decision.
I have a chioce.

It's totally in reverse of how I was raised as a child by a drunk.
"DO AS I SAY, BUT NOT WHAT I DO"..
I wasn't allow to make my mistakes and learn from them....

I'm a visual learner..(as are my children) SHOW ME...the money.lmao

My duaghter that's 21 at the moment, that I'm reuniting with.
She reached out to me...I just listen to her without forming
an opinion. It's healing her..becuase I sit and rerally, really
listen to her. She just need someone to listen to her
because she felt no one in her life was listening to her or know
her. She's doing much better. She's not as depressed.
She was allowed to released, express her emotions and just
process them. I just love her. I learn that in recovery and
passing on what was givien to me. How I healed.
I listen to her without interupting her...without cutting her off
in the middle of her releasing her anger, fears, or fuastrations..
In this manner she's able to resolve her unresolved anger.
She no longer has to hide or sholve her emotions and made
to feel like she's less of a human being or a child of god.
I love her ..not for what i think she ought to be or do.
I just love her. She dosn't have to earn my love. As i nevered
had to earn GOD's love. It's my haritage.

She was crying her heart out and asking me to take away her
pains. I couldn't fix her. It was unbareable for me to watch my
child being in so much pains. I couldn't fix or tell her what to
do..i had to step back and not interupt the healing process for
her. The mirracle for her. Growing pains as some would say
the touch stone of spiritaul growth or awaking. I had to give
her that grace and get the F out of the way.

As my sponsor would allow me to sit in my own **** until
I've have had enough.lmao (the principle of the 6th step)
How in the F do you think I'm going to get to the piont
of having the WILLINGNESS TO CHANGE?lmao

As in Step #7 and tradition #7..they go hand in hand.
What the heck are my shortcomings? Honestly?
The lack of being self supporting at the very core of my being.
Leaning on outside sources for my happiness(people place and things).
I'll either think I'm less than or more than human. Asking people
for advice becuase I don't feel I'm capiable, not good enough and can't
solve my own challenges or problems.(escaping or not being responsible)
Telling other people how to live thier lives is just my ego manifested
in my insecurities. (live and let live...remember?)
That's how i hurt people...telling them what to do and when
things don't go my way...I retaliate, mentally, emotionally or physically.
Then people reject me..Then i can't handle rejections...
Then i feel like crap about myself..then i wanna go check the F-out
and get drunk or high. Poor me...freaken nobody loves me..lmao

It's when i learn how to trust in my HP and trust in myself.
Generate the love and happiness within myself, that I'm free.
I become self surporting and don't need to control anything or
everyone around me...Acceptence of people. places and things as they are
not what I think or want them to be. The controling and manipulations stops. No one on this planet is required to make my life eaiser, happier,
pleased me nor see things my way.

I no longer have to play god. Playing god messed me up.lmao
I no longer have to be a marter or save anyone.
I no longer have to bend over backwards , be a people pleaser,
bending myself over backwards just to get accepted or tellin
people I know the **** and what's right for them..becuase
in actaully reality I'm just putting myself on a pedistal and
setting myself up for a fall when I tell people how to live.

There's no big I's and little U's in recovery...
Bill Wilson was just another recoverying Alki and human just like me.
I have winds wisping in my head from time to time (a spiritual awakening)..lmao
In other words. A freaken brain fart moment.
God bless Bill...he has a sense of humor

It's just my fears and ego menifested in a thousand forms.

You know...to understand rather then to be understood.
Err..how in the heck am i going to understand someone if
I don't listen to them?.lol

At the sametime...it's not all about me. I'm learning who
she is when i listen to her. She express herself honestly and
openly to me. She has a lot of trust issues. She's learning and
remembering how to trust again. She grew up in AA as a child.

hahahah...I also remember trying to discipline her as a child.
She didn't listen...She had to learn from making her own mistakes.
The moment I let go and allow her that grace..She learn from
her mistakes and didn't do them again.

[Craig A.]

Alot of good comments but Rocket2d4 hit on the head for me! When I first came into the program i was going to find the most strict, big book thumper sponsor who was going to tell me what to do and how to do it! I never once found that guy, I found the spiritual, loving sponsor who never told me to do anything, what a twist. He would tell me call me if you want to but don't have to, he always shared about the 3rd tradition a desire and would remind me of the first line in how it works. When I was in a half-way house I was standing by myself having a smoke and I looked across the parking lot and everybody was together talking and laughing while they were smoking, I went inside and called a friend and told him how I felt ( alone, nobody wants to be by me ), he responded you have to look/judge ( but don't demise them )at somebody to see if they are working a program to see if you want to be by them. I was one of those people in the house which would pull you up i.e.--push your chair in, you left crumbs on the countertop, etc... ( in a half-way house you were supposed to be working on improving yourself ),hang with the winners, looking back only two people are sober from that group. Amazing, when I started sponsoring people I took a little harder road, call me at least 3 times a week, you have to go to meetings at least 5 times a week, yada, yada, yada. That worked for their first year but when they started living life they expected me to make their decisions or when they got their year they fell apart/relapsed. I realize today you can't take their pain away they have to go through it themselves just like I did. I remember changing sponsors and doing a 5th step with him and he didn't share what he saw, I questioned him and said that is wrong, he responded I can tell you your defects/roots but if you don't see them yourself they will just change form and you still won't see them. I understand now what he was talking about, working a program, staying sober, living life is about me not about them. The focus has to stay on me if it doesn't then I am helping for the wrong reasons. Co-dependancy, people pleasing, authority figures play a big role on crossing boundaries. I learned this as stage 2 recovery, the true work of sobriety! How can I help you if I can't help myself, you can't give what you don't have! I never realized how co-dependant I was in my 1-3 years of sobriety, sponsoring 2-3 people, going to 5-7 meetings, spending more time with my sponsees or other people than I was taking care of myself did they hurt no, but I did! What I mean by this is, my sponsor would always use this analogy it is harder to hit a moving target that it is to hit a immoveable target! I would always be on the go never sitting still, which it would always seem allright but I truly never seen myself. The surface stuff, go to work,stay sober, help others,etc... I am not putting this down in anyway but I have to realize that the work I did and am doing puts me at e deeper level, if all I did is congrat myself on going to meetings, put down the drink and go to work well I won't scratch the surface, today I have to go deeper. I struggle with co-dependency, peoplepleasing, staying busy, this comes out in different forms. Life is beautiful today because I am living more of my life one day at a time, I can share my experience, strength, and hope and not expect you to understand or even take my advice and not judge or be mad when you don't! I share all this cause you hit home with me, I still will go to my sponsor with advice and want him or someone else tell me what to do because I don't want to take responsibility for my actions/behaviors/consequences, today I realixe that vocalize that and learn how to take responsibility for mine not nobody elses. If I give advice I share with them what I might do in that situation and remind them they have to make their own decision ( what works for me might not work for you ) and if someone is on b.s., if that b.s. bothers me I take a look at/in my life to see why ( anything that is disturbing me is from the inside never from the outsige ) and try to corect it. If it is a friend I will talk with them and share what I see but after that they don't change well I would have to back away! Sorry for this being so long but I guess there was a reason, Good luck and God Bless

[Honey Barbara]

Wonderful thread. Thankyou EVERYBODY. I am still focusing on not having a drink, I am yet to journey in and make these discoveries. reading through the posts makes me excited to have my own experiences and terrified at the same time.
I am trying to go through the 12 steps on my own, I am not sure that is even possible, but I am living remote for another 3 weeks, so I don't have an opportunity to go to a meeting, until that time. I think you are all wonderufl emotional preparation for me, I feel like a really know what to expect.
Thanks again
Honey Barbxxxxxx

[sonia n]

How to distinguish between reading someone elses inventory and calling them out on stupid bs ?. I tend to call it the way I see it wherever I am, but remain sensative enough to the 12 steps to know that my opinion is only validated in my world..., not necessarily someone elses, for we all are at different places in time and experience.

Hi Family,

HONESTLY I take peoples inventory all the time at a meeting. I am a recovering drug addict and alcoholic and I am very sick and know what I am capable of, I want people to PULL me up on my S### "for real." I have seen so much bull at meetings that I stay away from those types of meetings that have nothing but drama going on. :sad: for me recovery is about change. I like being and staying real that is the only way I can grow. :D. I speak my mind and stick with the winners :12: in my personal space. I almost died out their in the streets and did alot of damage and I do not people to sugar coat my behavior. I am very sensitive when I pull some people up and after that it is up to them to take a look at their behavior if they don't like what I say then they need to go deep inside themselves with all honesty and think!!! :6: I want to help not co-sign peoples behavior.

TO THINE OWNSELF BE TRUE!!! WE have to do what we NEED to do to remain CLEAN and SOBER...:195: "CHANGE" :D