Hypothetical Questions

[alcoholrehabcoach]

To get results like you have never seen before, you must become something you have never been before. The question I have for you today is "What have you never been before, that could really help you now?"


And if you're interested in a little mental workout, here's some hypothetical questions to help you exercise your ability to think for yourself, and make your own decisions about what things really mean:


1. If you were really committed to getting sober, but had no access to meetings, no internet connection, no telephone, and no one else to talk to, how would you go about it?

2. If the only person who could help you was yourself, would you abandon all hope of healing? Would you write yourself off as lost? Or would you find some other way to get the problem solved?

3. And if you had nobody else to give you any feedback, then how would you know when you are definitely making progress?

4. What would be some of the initial targets or milestones you would strive for, totally on your own, whether anybody else ever even knew or cared about your problem?

5. What's stopping you from doing that now?


:smile:

[Rocket2d4]

The what ifs....drives me freaken nutz.

I don't like the what is all the time...however my head ain't spinning.

Going into my head as a recoverying addict/alki is not a good idea.
It'll generate alot of unresolve questions in my head which result in a mind storm.
Which won't give me a peace of mind..If I suffered enough of mindstorms,
I'll check the F-out, numb out or get drunk. To try to get rid of my headache
I have OCPD with is a part of my ISM....

In a nutshell it's like a dog chasing it's own tail.....

The what if's are old behavior or old thinking patterns...

I can either accept life on life's terms and process that as best I can.
I can also learn to meditate. Meditation is a process of letting go of my what if thoughts.

I stop fighting my thoughts. I learn to just become an observer of my thoughts.
Thousands upon thousands of thoughts...some are fear based..
I just observe them as if a passing parade. I don't figure them out...
Eventaully my mind will come to rest....

Eventaully I'm aware of the moment and BE in the moment in the here and now,
not in my head of the what ifs, which pretty much drives me insane.
Insanity lives in my head.

I went to a lot of length to get F-up...
If I really want to get clean and sober without any reservations...I'll do whateve it takes.
I don't lack willingness, faith or motivations...
I'm either motivated to get f-up or motivated to stay sober.
I'm either motivted to stay in bed all day or movitated to get up off of my ass to do something about my life.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

I stop fighting my thoughts. I learn to just become an observer of my thoughts.




Outstanding. Some thoughts are fear based. Some are not. We decide what does and doesn't serve us. Sounds like sober judgment to me.


In other words, there is no need to act on every mental impulse, so there is no need to fear your thoughts. You are in control of your mind, your mind is not controlling you.


"Learn to become an observer of my thoughts." Great answer, Rocket!

[alcoholrehabcoach]

The mind follows the breath.

Slow down your breathing, you will slow down your thoughts and begin developing self-control.

Anytime you are freaking out, check your breathing. Is it rapid, shallow and way up in the chest? (that's bad). Or is it long, slow, deep, and coming way down from in the diaphragm? (that's good!)

Put your hand on your diaphragm now. Take a deep breath and observe what happens to your hand.

When you take a deep breath, does your hand fall with your diaphragm? That's bad. It means you are breathing with your chest.

Or when you take a deep breath, does your hand rise with your diaphragm? That's good! It means you are more relaxed and in control.

The mind follows the breath. If you want to control your thoughts, learn to control your breathing.

There is nothing more freaky to the mind than not getting any oxygen!

Practice long, slow, deep diaphragmatic breathing, and observe what happens to your state of mind every time you do.

[Rocket2d4]

Yes, very true in my case pretainding to breathing.

I've notice when I'm in a stressful situation I'll hold my breathe or stop breathing naturally. Which stress my heart and brain even more becuase I'm cutting off oxygen flow to my brain and body. Which causes me to not think very clear. When I don't have clear thinking, I don't make the best of decisions.

I've also observe or notice my mind will drift and not stay focus in the moment. Sometimes while driving my car. Other times when I'm preforming
evasive manuver or task. I really started noticing it when I got into R/C modeling. This hobbie requires that I focus on the model while I'm performing
aerobatics manuvers...I've notice my brain or thought would drift into
asking/wondering what I had for breakfest last week..lol

The same will happen when I'm playing my guitar...

Bascailly playing my guitar or flying my R/C models can be a form of
meditation.

I've struggle with meditations for years becuase I was trying to control
my thoughts or tried to stop them. I came across informations that
made sense to me and followed the suggestions...

What I resist/fight persist.
Bascailly with my thoughts and other things in my life.

Back to the....Let go and let god.

I've been struggling with the GOD thing for the past couple of years.
I came across a program about 6 months ago. It's call the Sedona Methdoe.
Bascailly it just about letting go of my thoughts or feelings.

My thoughts drives my emotions. My emotions drive my actions.
I notice this while taking to course in mirracles.
I notice theres a 8 sec of grace. (the window of chioce)
I'll either make a decision to go on auto pilot or react to my thoughts
or I would chose to be happy and not react.
The course in mirracle had been helpful for me of breaking old thought
and behavior patterns or delusions/illusions.

During this process i was introduce to the concept of your inner child.
I bascailly became more aware how I was beating up/punishing myself or that child inside of me...

I also came across the negative inner vioce...(through learning to be an observer of my mind).
I was taking a nice stroll at a park oneday, then out of nowhere a vioce came into my mind
saying what a terrible or a loser of a person I was or that I was never good enough..blah..blah blah..
The vioce was very, very subtle ( it was the vioce of my father difting in the back ground)
However this have been going on in my life for a long time....
When I made mistakes or have altercations with my father I'd used to go into a deep depression
and lots N lots of negative thinking.

I follow that instructions of truning the inner vioce into a possitive inner vioce.
My inner vioce is nutrual..I bascally just had to replace the old tape..
As simple as "you can't" to "you can" From "you're bad" to " you're better"

Anyway...being an observer of my thoughts is like being in a state of higher consiousness

I've found the Sedona's teaching very simple or what I needed.
I was struggle with greiving over someone I love very much.
I was very angery at god. My mind couldn't accept it or resolved any of it.
I'd play thousand of thousand of what ifs...in my mind over and over
again...If i did this or that she would still be alive today. Gradually
it turned into self defeating. I started feeling guilt, regrets and remose...

I bascailly had to stop fighting my grieving and stopped trying to figure
out WHY she died. I'd don't have the answer to that and I'll probably
never will...but that's okay. I don't need to figure it out.

[skyhook]

To get results like you have never seen before, you must become something you have never been before. The question I have for you today is "What have you never been before, that could really help you now?"


And if you're interested in a little mental workout, here's some hypothetical questions to help you exercise your ability to think for yourself, and make your own decisions about what things really mean:


1. If you were really committed to getting sober, but had no access to meetings, no internet connection, no telephone, and no one else to talk to, how would you go about it?

2. If the only person who could help you was yourself, would you abandon all hope of healing? Would you write yourself off as lost? Or would you find some other way to get the problem solved?

3. And if you had nobody else to give you any feedback, then how would you know when you are definitely making progress?

4. What would be some of the initial targets or milestones you would strive for, totally on your own, whether anybody else ever even knew or cared about your problem?

5. What's stopping you from doing that now?


:smile:

What I appreciate about these questions, is that they capture my exact mindset prior to beginning recovery.

Despite all the percieved barriers one feels when the "lightbulb" turns on and that moment when we finally, truly realize our basic predicament, of a life out of control, the human spirit finds a way to survive.

All of the steps, mechanisms, procedure and other recovery road maps, I believe, are truly found after this initial self awareness revelation...in the midst of no real or obvious answers. In hindsight, I can see the answers, but the reality is that each answer was discovered after moving out from "ground zero".

Faith in the human spirit, and more important, walking it out, ignites hope and hope gives way to understanding and process.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

Great answers, everyone. Thanks for your participation.

The next round gets a little tougher:

What does an addict gain, or what do they get to keep, by believing they have no choice?

[Chewi]

If they believe they have no choice, they get to keep getting high, which is what addicts like to do. They get to keep their pride. They get to keep the illusion (delusion) that nothing is really wrong with them. They get to keep the illusion that they are really in control.

If I believe I have a choice, then I can chose to admit I have a problem and need to do something about it. If I believe I have no choice, then I just go on doing what I'm doing until utter self-destruction.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

One thing I've observed that some people get out of believing they have no choice or power over their addiction, is they get to remain feeling powerless.

They get to remain feeling like a victim and lashing out at life and other people.

They get to continue building up their defences, and believing there is danger. Even when there is plenty of evidence showing they are safe and there is nothing left to fear.

I'm not speaking for anyone else. And I'm not asking anybody anything I haven't already asked myself.

I've just known too many addicts who have used the tired old excuse that if someone becomes totally free and clear of their addiction, then in their minds "that person was never really an addict to begin with."

To me that's "crabs in the bucket" thinking and I totally disagree with it. My proof is in my own experience and is not diminished by anybody else's point of view. The truth of my reality is:

I was once an alcoholic. Now I'm not.
I was once a drug addict. Now I'm not.
I was once a gambler. Now I'm not.

Yes, I still have the capacity to be and do all those things again. I choose not to. Instead, I choose to be in control and responsible for myself.

Besides feeling like a victim and blaming others for their problems, another thing I see addicts often getting from their beliefs, is a sense of connection or comraderie with other people who feel the same as them.

I understand people have a longing to belong and sometimes it is scary to stand alone. It is very difficult to rise above the expectations of your peer group. But for many people, the fear of being cast out from the group, or being separate from their friends, is stopping them from healing on their own.

I ask questions to help people find their way. Their way. A way that works for them. Not mine or anybody else's.

[BIG AL]

I ask questions to help people find their way. Their way. A way that works for them. Not mine or anybody else's.
__________________
I have to say mike the biggest reason OR MAYBE THE MAIN REASON people dont sober up is becouse they try till death to find there own way.I have sat back and watched as people here and at other site that go to come in and say HOW?I am still drinking.Many folks relapsing.Or maybe not ever having sobriety.Look we have to stop this my program;my way.this kind of thinkking kills alcholics and addicts and I have to believe that you believe this or why would you have a center or program for someone to follow.Why becouse people need to be tought to stay sober they can not do it on there own if they they would not need this place 12 steps or your program or center.What I hear and into the light saying and I have to agree is that a full blown addict can not make ratiional decisions.I always like some of the stuff you come here with Bro.I do feel like most is for people who has some clean time with a clear head.I rememeber when I went treatment it took weeks before I could even decide that I wanted to stay sober<so the thought and feeling of hoplessness was all I felt.If I had to rely on myself to stay sober I would of been doomed.Look at some of the most recent posts people are hurttting the want what we have.The havent a clue on how to do it.(BY THE WAY AT ONE TIME I DIDNT HAVE A CLUE EITHER).My primary purpose is to stay sober and help the alcholic who still suffers.Do my beliefs drive my thinkking absolutly.I believe if I believe in myself I can do anything.If I beleive I can change I can.OK MY QUESTION TO YOU.At what point in sobriety do you start to change your beliefs?Little story about me.When I sobered up I got out of treatment ok called my sponsor.Asked him what do I do know?He said go home go to bed get up look for a job.Ok I did that got home that night asked him what to do.Ok go to bed get up go to work when you get home call me.OK got home from work called him.Asked him what to do know he asked me did you drink?I said no. Ok he said go to bed and do it all over again tomorrow but before you go to bed thank god for helpping you stay sober.How do you chnage beliefs in people who dont have the living skills to hardley function in life.Like me who when went into treatment were unemployable,hiegene habits were all but gone,and social skills were blown away.I BEILEVE that first lets put the plug in the jug.Get those living skills going.Like maybe me who one of the last times I saw my wife was when I was in a drunken rage abussing her and stop this behavior wich didnt magicaly dissapear.And lets try to agree that there is alternative ways out there to stay sober.But Ounce a line has been crossed when your useing you can not and will not do your thing or your way by yourself and live very long.Be Blesseed Bro.

[skyhook]

What does an addict gain, or what do they get to keep, by believing they have no choice?

These questions are open ended by design, to be inclusive to anyone reading and allowing each to interpret within their own ability, experience or need.

A. My belief system dictates my need or desire, which are payoffs or prizes.

B. My payoffs/prizes are realized thru my actions.

C. If I don't allow flexabilty or change in A or B (ie...continue with poor thinking), then my choices will appear to be limited as well, perpetuating a vicious, dysfunctional cycle. The poor thinking was in place, long before the medication or liquor.

I was given my freedom through Divine intervention. Sorry, thats the way it went down. One night, no withdrawal...ever. I may have been clean, but I was a bloomin wreck emotionally and physically, for many, many years.

Never the less, I have spent the last 18 years, since, scrutinizing A and B, so as to undergird, expand and strengthen my choices. Choices, you see, define consequences or results...the good ones or the bad. They are the matrix or the glue of many aspects of our lives.

And each are correct; not everyone gets out of this mess alive.

No secret decoder ring, handshake or therapy, showing the one and true path to serentiy. But, some, not only miss someone elses truth, but never even get out of the gate to even begin to formulate their own truth. They never had a chance to see that their recovery tapestry is as unique as their soul, fingerprints and dna. We are fond of our recovery process, it is personal and real and tatooed to our spirits. We need to embrace the miracle and hard work recovery requires and appreciate, just as relentlessly, the varying recovery processes of others, all seeking the s a m e p r i z e.

Mikes question in this thread helps people to begin leaning on the gate of hope. The question is not really for those of us who busted out of that gate already

[alcoholrehabcoach]

Nice job, Al.

You always offer a caring and heartfelt response and I appreciate your views very much.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

These questions are open ended by design, to be inclusive to anyone reading and allowing each to interpret within their own ability, experience or need.

Thank you, Skyhook.

[annalittlebit]

Mine is a very simple response---I have no choice----I cannot Drink or Use. But I do choose to accept that. :15:

[alcoholrehabcoach]

No.

The last time I went down this path with you Light, you were unable to hear my answers to your questions.
Dear Mike,

"Responding" may not be the right word, though, because you didn't really respond to anything that I said nor address anything points that I brought up.

If you would like to discuss my points and theories with me, I will be more than happy have that conversation with you.

Nevertheless, I thank you for your highly imaginative theories reguarding ontology and theism.


It sounds to me like you are not really interested in any point of view other than your own.

As I agree with the forum administrator's "No Drama" rules, thank you for the invitation, but with you I see no value in discussing this topic any further.

However, I would certainly love to hear other people's views on it.

[DaveH]

Mike,
I truely enjoy reading these threads, without exception they always result in me spending time examining my beliefs. I find all of the answers to be of interest too. We have quite a few folks who are able to respond in a very cerebral way and that appeals to me also.
I don't share your experience regarding powerlessness though; I have found that my "off" switch has never been repaired as it relates to drinking. I don't believe it ever will, in fact I think it would be dangerous for me to expect it to. That does in fact make me powerless over a condition, but not powerless over my life. The 12 steps of AA actually "empowered " me to live a full and functional life. Today, the truth of my reality is that I am a recovering alcoholic and never a victim.

Mike, I hesitated to respond since I have adopted Bill W. admonition in step 2 of the 12&12 and have resigned from the debating society. That was difficult for me, I loved to win debates. But friends should be able to to explore different perspectives, even dissagree, without it becoming a debate. And I consider everyone on this thread to be a friend. Thanks for the opportunity.
Blessings,
DaveH

[skyhook]

The presuppostion is ridiculous that AA is the be all end all in recovery. AA is but one of many systems for recovery. Any system that works has value, including AA.

Is it not enough to get the juicy hamburger ? Do we now have to nit pick the driving directions to the hamburger stand, because our route is the only one we know ?

Ever hear of an alcoholic recover, relapse or die drunk and be a member of AA ?

Ever hear of an alcoholic recover, relapse or die a drunk who was not a member of AA?

This is a recovery website dedicated to those in recovery. Is the inference that only those active, assimilated , experienced or committed to AA are permitted to share their experience with recovery ?

And if someone dares to share outside of an AA mindset, will he or she be subject to salacious cyber assault, with circular arguments, Iraq war comparisons and a basic reconstructionist editting of others posts to make this Forum resemble a shoddy rerun of a Jerry Springer show ?

Command of the english language and a smokin keyboard, does not afford anybody the right to disrespect, gouge or otherwise attack the experiences of others....simply because they are contrary to your own experience.

Are we that naive and self righteous,to say to our membership who simply watches,"To hell with any of you who don't follow AA?", trying to convince them that if they ignore or choose alternative approaches to AA book text , then they are doomed, mindless or have no hope? Poppycock!

AA and NA have saved millions of lives. The other lives who were saved, outside of these organizations, count as well and their stories should be not only heard...but respected.

Afterall, it is the human spirit in submission to its HP, which endures and prevails under adverse and infinite conditions and contributing groups, professionals, systems, methods are simply roadmaps to a destination in recovery that these organizations do not own !

Leadership is not Loudership and recovery is not the exclusive domain of a any group, even one as respected and sussessful as AA.

In my opinion, anyone who would speak on behalf of AA in such a way, as to slam other experiences or options, is a poor representative of AA and the 12 steps and contradicts not only the core values of AA, but also the spirit of recovery as well.

It is an agenda I am unfamiliar with, especially on this website.

Peace.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

Dave,

Thanks very much for your post. I also enjoy and learn from many things that you have written, and I respect that you have set up your own parameters for what does and doesn't work for you.

Personally, I enjoy a good debate. When I am proven right, I win. And when I am proven wrong, I still win, because I get to let go of an old belief.

Just as you have set parameters for yourself, I like to set parameteres for myself and the way that I relate to people.

If you feel it is still in your best interest to resign from debating, I do not want to mess with that. However if you are ready for a challenge, then I encourage you to pick a side in a moderated debate that will hopefully soon start between IntoTheLight and I in the "Afraid of Thoughts" thread.

I encourage you to take a stand and back whichever position you care to take, inserting your comments whenever you feel comfortable.

Then, like me, you can have the experience of knowing "When I am right, I win. When I am wrong, I win!

peace.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

Skyhook,

Again, thank you. Very well said.

[clean42day]

What does an addict gain, or what do they get to keep, by believing they have no choice?


for me the answer to this is simple - they get to - keep their story alive whether based on convenience, or denial, or justification and effectivley avoid taking full responsibility to become and claim complete freedom.

they continue to gain rationalizations and justifications for doing exactly as they please by lying to themselves....and they "get to" keep being sick and justifying every action by claiming they have a disease they have no power over.

I am one of those people who walks into a meeting and feels like a square in a room full of circles, but I continue to stand my ground. I don't agree with all the concepts in meetings...and I had a really hard time with powerlessness and what it implies. But I also happen to love living by spiritual principals...so I take what I can and leave the rest.

I also had a hard time with having to rely on a Higher power for all of my choices.....there is only one area where I lose the power of choice.....
as a result I was also a chronic relapser. I finally hit the big and final surrender and that was my turning point. What did I surrender to? To God? The 12 step programs? treatments? Nope I surrendered to the truth and stopped lying to myself. I cannot put crack cocaine into my body and still retain the power not to take another hit. no one had to convince me of that - I convinced myself.


For me it is real simple: if I am alergic to strawberries but I keep eating them hoping for a different result other than hives- that is not powerlessness - nor is it a disease - it is simple insantiy.

After many years in the program and 4 treatment centers...I had been schooled on the Disease concept - plus cognitive and behavioral concepts.....all of it boils down to - having my own experience with myself....."they" did not convince me - I did.

Whatever we hold to be our deepest truths and core beleifs is what we will live into our lives and manifest in our actions.

Living a 12 step way of life certainly helped me turn a corner in my addiction toward recovery.....but I have been blessed to also not become limited to the just the concepts in "the program". there are a zillion ways to recover - no one way is better than the other - what makes any choice successful is the power of belief you put behind it and the conviction to stick to that belief and that path no matter what.

I beleived for years that I had a disease I had no control over....and that became my truth and I lived it and proved it over and over again. Running on fear that the Disease is so much more powerful than me - cunning...baffeling blah blah blah. it is not - the only power it has - is the power of "concept' THAT I GIVE IT in my belief system. I have never seen the disease of addiction walk into a room throw a person down on the floor and make them drink or smoke crack!

there are a whole slew of choices that I persoanlly have along the way toward right thinking and right actions. and Ultimatley the choice is mine to get loaded or not...and I don't get to blame my actions on a disease anymore than a recovered cancer patient gets to say that cancer made them act a certain way in their present life.

I also believed that I was defective mentally - that there was something different about my brain - (obsessive and compulsive).....hmmm I wonder why I don't have that personality trait in any other aspect of my life?

Behaviorally is about the only concept that I will fully agree with. if we do something long enough repetively enough and consistently enough - it becomes a habit...then depenedency...and finally full blown addiction can set in. This is not some mystical "disease" - I can take a dog and train it the exact same way and it will look like, act like, and behave just exactly as I have addictively trained it.

People are brain washed in exactly the same ways.....Addicts have effectly trained themselves into full blown addictions along with all the belief systems to justifiy it. and to an extent some people in recovery have traded one type of negative drug addiction for a full blown recovery addiction.

why? because it works? given the alternative between the two - I would rather be a recovery addict than a drug addict. but the point here is - there arent just two choices...there are a myraid of many choices inbetween.
we believe it is black and white, right and wrong because we tell ourselves that.

and more often than not we believe everything we are told by societies....by law enforcement...by the church....by medical professionals....by psychologists we take outside schema's and ideologies and then internalize them and make them our truth. It seems to me that mike is asking us to step out of the box of thinking and come up with some origional ideas that didn't get passed down from some book or psychologist.

Belief systems - are nothing more than plausible explanations that sound good and they turn into the stories we tell ourselves.

if enough people believe something to be "real" - it becomes real in it's consequences.

As Mike has implied in his end signature - change your story and you change your life.
Just my two cents worth and I certainly could be wrong...but I live what I believe and it is working for me......and so far I like the results.

it may not work for you - and that is ok....to thine own self be true.

I happen to like and love the 12 step fellowships - they are a great avenue of support - but they are not what keep me clean today....I have many avenues of support that are equally effective. But nothing is as powerful as the story I tell myself.

light and love

Gail

[skyhook]

Again, ITL, while your posts served as a springboard to my comments about a topical thread, it had nothing to do with you personally.

Mine was not in response to the positions and opinions you represent, but to the manner in which you employ them. You havent been here long, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt of trying to learn on the fly. Many of us try to look out for the big picture and not get caught up in the minutia. BUt some of your posts are so good, they demand a response, and I thank you for the opportunity to respond, as well.

I do apologize for not recognizing "snake oil salesman" or " running away with ones tails between their legs" as endearing sentiment, but than again, you and I share different belief systems, and fundamentally, I think that is why we occasionally trip on one another. So out of respect to you, let me take this opportunity to apologize for misunderstanding the intent of your written text.

Thanks again, for the diverse, engaging and expansive thread coverage, that more times than not, offers fair guidance to a watching membership.

[skyhook]

In another thread, Mike and I have agreed to "wipe the slate clean" and begin over.

I expect that I will be re-posting my rebuttal to him either in a new thread or continuing it here.

Nevertheless, Mike and I are working together now and I thank him for his courtesy in coming to a rational middle ground with me on these issues.

[Sidebar: A note to Skyhook and others who share his sentiments: just because there is a momentary disagreement or conflict on a forum, does not mean that it will exist perpetually. Often, through discussion and time, people who have opposing viewpoints can reach some sort of accomodation if they are willing to be patient and take the time to do so.]

Hi,
Since my name has been applied, may I add that sharing Mikes sentiments or choosing sides was not the point of my posts. Mike and I also have a history of discussion on things we disagree with. My point, on this trhead was for one of inclusion, regardless of familiarity. Its called tolerance.

Supposing this is a side choosing adventure is regrettable, because it makes the discussion about winning and not about growing. I will watch and learn more. Maybe we all will.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

my model of the world:

winning = learning.

[alcoholrehabcoach]

Keep this up and I will have to delete this thread.

[clean42day]

Not being able to let go of the need to be "right" can really throw a thread off track. I hope that we can all learn from eachothers points of view.

light and love

Gail

[BIG AL]

Yikes one of the reason I have sat idley by and moved to another site is becouse of the pissing contest that seems to sprung up.As I watched it seemed to work it self out as these things do when 2 intellegent people who have broke down some barriers wich needed to be broken.Lets remeber the personal victory is the alcholic that we help not if we are right or wrong.I am wrong about a whole lot of stuff.I remeber yrs ago me and mike went at it and as I keep a open mind I realised that although I dont always agree with his thoughts,We can agree to disagree.AA big book clearly says that aa does not hold the monopaly on sobriety.I like to see some healthy debattting on some of this stuff If.I say check the ego at the door and give us your claim of recovery.My sister went through teen challenge no steps no traditions nothing but full gospel jesus save me.Is that for me?Nope would of died I neeeded the 12 steps.I needed to be tought how to live one day at a time.I have sought out outside counsleing for some things and it has helpped.I will sit back and chill and see if we can get some constructive things out of this and if not I would say remember we have folks who need us here watching to get what we have and if our lives our as confussing and disfunctional as theres are why would they seek us out.They have that already.Yall be blessed

[Rocket2d4]

First and foremost I'm the only person that calls me an alki or an addict.
Alkis gose to AA....Drunks gose to a bar.lmao

An addict with no chioce.??? That's like a death sentence

Pretaining to NO CHIOCE to stop using?

That's simple...to continue using of course:mrgreen:

To not be accountiable or responsible for the consequences/wackage of using of course.

To remain in the depth of a living hell.
To remain a slave or a puppet.


ALL 12 steps program is about FREEDOM. They're just program of suggestions.
You don't have to do anything in NA/AA/GA/SA...etc.
You are free to come and go as you chose.
I have a chioce today....I chose not to use today.
A god of my understanding...that's my chioce too. Whatever works for me is right for me.

Don't worry about having to do things on your own in recovery.
My sponsor nevered worked my steps for me..lmao
My sponsor or anyone else in recovery never cleaned up my messs for me.
My sponsor never went and dragged my ass out of a bar after I relapsed
My sponsor never removed my shortcomings or charactor defects from me...
As a matter of fact he let me sit in my one **** untiul I've had enough.lol
My sponsor never prayed for me nor communicated with my HP for me...

My sponsor never dragged my butt to a meeting...He figure if I can make it
to a bar on my own, I can make it to AA which is across the street from
the bar..:mrgreen:

The differnce between my sponsor and my alki father is...my sponsor dosn't redicule
me nor dose he enable me...It's the way he communicates with me.
He's very kind and gental with me and supportive of me.
He offers me solutions or makes sugestions. He understands me.
He listen to me...he actaully really listens to me.
He loves me very, very much. I don't have to do anything to earn his love.
He allows me to make my own chioces.
He allows me to make mistakes and learn from them.

My sponsor will never beat or forced feed recovery into me.
There are certain things in my life that had to changed.
YOU HAVE TO STOP BEATING ME OR BEAT ANYTHING INTO ME.
Drugs and alcohol ABUSE...

Recovery has a lot more than not using. Abstant is very, very important of course.
Unfortantly an alcoholic/addict have a lot of living problems, don't know how cope or live life on life's terms.
The 12 steps are just one of many living programs.
The principle behind the 12 step living program is that one would learn how live a happy and healthy life style
that one would not need to use drugs, alcohol or any mood changing or mind altering substance to live.
In other words....STAY STOPPED after abstance or the withdraw stage.

Stopping using will not eliminate life's challgenges...Hopefully by living a healther life style one would minimize chaos.
Sometimes drugs and alcohol abuse mask other illness such as ocd, ptsd, depressions, thyriod levels, abused issues, abandenment issues
or other physical illness.

It's very common for people to find out they have other illness after they get clean and sober.
Drinking and using only masked and compounded a person's problem...
It's can be very, very overwhemling for a person to address these problems..

It's just as simple as strength in numbers. A one man army is not recommended.
Nothing is impossible...but 1 is a lonely number..lol

As in any bussiness...A bussiness can not stand or operate alone.
A bussiness have networks of support from verious avenues in order for it to function.