hi!

[Minka]

Hi everybody!
I am new and I am scared of so much information that I have to asimilate and process. I am 32 and I have never ever lived one day of my life without some addict next to me.
My Mom was alcoholic, my Dad adicted to sex. My first bf alcoholic. The second adicted to adrenaline. My husband is adicted to both alcohol AND pornography.
I want out of my life. I want our of my own skin. I cannot hate myself that much to allow all these things to be done to me... And still, they are my family, the ppl I loved or still do somehow...
Please help

[sea queen]

It is great that u realize that you need to get out of the situations that you are in. U don't have to enjoy porn because your husband does.

It is okay to visit/talk with your family(mom and dad etc) on limited basis.
You will be happier with yourself in the bigger picture.
Sea Queen

[flickchic]

Hello Minka and Sea queen, and a big warm :45: to you both.

I'm Felicity, clean d.addict and recovering alcoholic. I live in Australia.:D

Minka have you looked at ALANON??....I feel you may find it very very helpful for your situation. They deal with living with addicts. We have a forum here; http://www.cyberrecovery.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=11

http://www.cyberrecovery.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1259 you may find this prayer helpful. I use the Serenity Prayer to help me and have done for some time now;

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference.
Thy Will be done and not my own.

I have a version that I use daily; that was given to me by one of our sisters;

God grant me the serenity to accept the people I cannot change,
The courage to change the one I can
And the wisdom to know; that one is me!!

God can be changed with HP, Higher Power of your choice :1:


I live with another alcoholic and he is active in his addiction, and I do struggle with this at times, however I am also coming to accept that he is who he is and his choices are his, provided they do not remove my newfound serenity then I choose to continue to live with him.

Please try not to fear all the information you feel you need to process; we have a slogan; ODDAT; "One Day At A Time", which a lot of us have had to break down to one minute at a time in our processess of recovery; this can also apply to information; "One Step At A Time", and "Easy Does It":42: I also like to use "baby steps"....

First and foremost I would like to suggest to let go of hating yourself. I know all too well how that feels and how self destructive it is/can be. Secondly, as in the Serenity Prayer; begin on working on you, for yourself, not for others and or on them. Positive Affirmations work really well, even if you don't believe them to begin with, the more we use Positive self talk and not the negative we do begin to believe what we are saying and believe in ourselves. We are all priceless individuals and you are equally one. http://www.cyberrecovery.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6

I's also like to congratulate you for reaching out, it takes courage to do this, to acknowledge our lives are unmanagable and that we need/would like help. I pray you continue to come back and sharing your story, reaching out to our friends/family here. We have a great bunch of people here, from all different walks of life that have much wisdom, insight, love, care and support if you want it, it's here:1: :1: :42:

:97: :105::92:

[fibiray]

Hi there minka welcome aboard. How brave of you to come here and share your experiences. I know myself after years of growing up in a alcoholic and dysfuntional environment that it took some time to speak up about what was happening to me. And yes I too suffered from self hate always feeling respnsible for how my family was. Like it has been seen you will benefit from contacting alanon in face to face and on line. This will show you how to manage the unmanageability in your life and help you to find peace. Keep coming back and sharing.
Fi
xxx

[Minka]

Thank everybody for your words.


It is 2 years already that I could admit in front of myself and of others that I have a problem that would not dissapear if the addict in my life would change behaviour. During the last 2 years I read a few books and a lot of info I got from the net. I made a friend who had a similar experience and we were both trying to find THE way.
Still I feel trapped. I am not reaching anywhere. I am still the same only now I can recognise very well the mechanisms that make me say what I say, do what I do and take the decisions that I take - all of them 100% in a codependent way!!! So the efforts of the last 2 years were for nothing, or almost nothing.
I am about to separate from my husband and I suffer of enormous feeling of guilt. I know that this is my only chance to get out of this abusive relationship. Still I cannot just walk away. I cannot. I cannot. He is the man I once loved. The one I shared 4 years of my life with. And he is suffering. I know I cannot help him. I know that if I stay it would only get worse...

[Kai Stevens]

I'm Kai, grateful alcoholic.

What you've done for the last 2 years has not been for nothing. You have learned something that is very important in order to change your life. You have learned that you need to take care of YOURSELF. Until you know that, there is really nothing you can do for yourself.

Alanon is a wonderful program for people who have dealt with the same thing you are dealing with. You can meet good people, who are trying to live healthier lives, and will support you. You should really give them a try. I promise they can help.

Love ya later. Kai

[Minka]

Alanon is a wonderful program for people who have dealt with the same thing you are dealing with. You can meet good people, who are trying to live healthier lives, and will support you. You should really give them a try. I promise they can help.

Love ya later. Kai

Thanks Kai, very nice of you but there is no Alanon group in my town, only in one not very far from here but I don't have a car. So for the moment I must try to manage with what I have...
I guess my tragedy starts the moment I cannot know for sure if alcoholism is a disease that could have been controlled by the alcoholic. I am sure no alcoholic decides to become like this. And still, it would help me a lot to know that they could have done something, anything, not to fall that low. How much of the drinking can be considered as their own responsability, as a self-made thing?
Because if alcoholism is a disease than turning my back on a sick person (or more sick persons) is not exactly human...

[flickchic]

Because if alcoholism is a disease than turning my back on a sick person (or more sick persons) is not exactly human... Minka, walking away from one you love who is stuck in "their own" sickness is possibly one of the most loving things you can do for them....while people continue to forgive us, give us another chance, we just keep on blowing it, time and time again; YES it is our choice, deep inside there is always a choice; and YES we are the ONLY ones who can make the decision as to if we continue drinking/using or cease. My partner walked away from me in January and it was the kindest thing he could have done for me; over and over I had drunk, raged, abused, etc., then I got right out of hand one night and that was the end of that. Here I sit, 9 months later, so grateful for that rock bottom I hit, I chose to find a way to 'live' and not continue the path to 'death' that I was on and had been for years.

so while you may think it is not human to turn your back, it can certainly be humane!!!!

ALANON speaks of "enabling"; I know all too well about that one; as long as we continue to make excuses, take blame etc for our partners/ loved ones, we are saying "oh yeah, it's ok, go ahead, drink/drug etc"......I had an alchoholic hubby and had another partner that was a very very abusive alcoholic /drug addict......I enabled both those guys for years. Current partner ( we re-united) I have also enabled over time, that is changing bit by bit however as I regain 'my authentic self"...I am no longer abusive and no longer tolerate abusiveness to self. I try very hard not to 'enable his addiction'.....even to the point that if the smell of alcohol on his breath is too much for me at the time; I will now let him know and sit further away from him, not kiss him and move his drinks from in front of me. "I accept that his choice is his to make, however I also accept that I have choices now too!! If I turned my back on this man now, it would be in the interest of my own recovery, at the end of the day I cannot guide someone else into recovery if they choose not to go and if their addiction is going to affect my serenity and sobriety to an unsafe place then I would choose to leave.

[Minka]

i think I have to print some of your senteces on a piece of paper and have it with me all the time
thanks

[Minka]

I have started reading and I got to this: http://www.cyberrecovery.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4909

"The next example of an enabler is the spouse. This is someone, regardless of gender, who has become accustomed to a life style made possible by the addicts earning power or popularity. They are use to the vacations, social functions and the like. So what if the addict makes a fool of themselves "He's had one too many". If he's too drunk to drive the spouse will drive him home. Or just leave him there.

The spouse will continue supporting the addict as long as the income or social status remains. Once the alcoholic becomes too much of a burden, the spouse leaves. Their justification is "I did it for his own good" or "I did it for the children"

As mentioned at the beginning, enablers are pragmatic people. If they believe the alcoholic or addict can be rescued, they weigh the costs and benefits. If it makes economic or social sense, they will place that person into a 28 day rehab. However, since understanding the disease is not their priority, they expect the alcoholic to be cured in 28 days. Anything short of that is the addicts fault."

I find these lines very cruel and they show the wifes/partners of alcoholics in a bad light. After all once you're in such a relationship you make the best you can out of your situation, it is not that anybody planns to find an alcoholic and manipulate/use him.
I simply find these lines cruel and not true. Of course there is something true in them, and the wife will use the social contacts of the husband for instance, why not, isn't life in a couple - any couple - about sharing? Or the wife should only get the crap?

[Doraine]

I went to Alanon when I was married to a drug & alcohol abuser who was also into abusing me and liked porn. I got the courage with the help of Alanon & victims services to get divorced. My only regret was that I didn't do it sooner.

[Kai Stevens]

I'm kai, grateful alcoholic.

Can an alcoholic choose not to become an alcoholic? Yes and No. The Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous) says that alcohol is but a symptom of my disease.
"I'm not sick, because I drank too much. I drank too much, because I am sick."
OR
"I didn't have a DRINKING problem, I had a LIVING problem. I had a DRINKING SOLUTION."

My problem wasn't alcohol. My problem was me, and drinking helped me get away from my problem, drinking got me away from me. Some people choose drugs, sex, gambling, porn, rage, food, and on and on. Before I even started drinking, I was addicted to men (violent men, no less), sex, chaos, anger. It all comes from the same place, really. There was a giant hole inside me, a suffocating agony, a desparate desire to die (or die trying!).

So, Yes, I could have chosen something other than alcohol and therefore not become an "alcoholic". And, No, until I found a healthy solution, I had no choice but to become addicted to something. Because that's the way we human beings are, we aren't meant to live with a giant hole inside.

Alanon, actually came out of AA. For that matter, any and all 12-step programs came from the AA 12-step program. If you don't have access to an alanon meeting, you can go to any open AA meetings in your area. You can also get a lot of help on this sight.

The part that you read and posted did sound to be strongly worded, but please don't let that keep you from giving the program a chance. The things taught in this program apply in a general way to what most of us have experienced, but not ALL things have been experienced by ALL people on the same level or to the same degree. I apply to my life what applies to my life and I understand that others experiences may differ somewhat from mine.

Most of us in AA, or NA, or CA, have Alanon issues, so it is very reasonable to expect that you may find other alanons in any of these programs. Just keep coming back, I guess is what I'm trying to say. If this is your only place then this will do until something better comes along. This "dis-ease", illness, sickness, is like no other-
"......An illness of this sort-and we have come to believe it an illness-involves those about us in a way no other human sickness can, If a person has cancer all are sorry for him and no one is angry or hurt. But not so with the alcoholic illness, for with it there goes annihilation of all the things worth while in life. It engulfs all whose lives touch the sufferer's. It brings misunderstanding, fierce resentment, financial insecurity, disgusted friends and emloyers, warped lives of blameless children, sad wives and parents....." p.18 Big Book.
-but there is a solution.

You will find love, acceptance, understanding, and support here. So, please, keep coming back. We love you and pray for you, even though we have not met you. Because we know, WE KNOW, what this sickness does. To the user and the ones who love them.

Love ya later. Kai

[flickchic]

hiya again Minka,

yes, I agree that section is strongly worded, it is also rather "generalised" and an example, I enabled two others and they were far from in great economic or social stead......if you re-read the examples above you will notice they are generalised also and do include r/ship enabling I feel; I guess one of the 'classics' of enabling is "making excuses" for your partner/for their behaviour, attitudes etc.

As Kai shared; apply to your life what is for "your life".....one of the best things I have learned over time to gain 'knowledge/insight' into anything is to read/listen to as much as you can, don't take it all 'on board', take what "you feel you need" from it, and leave the rest. I found this began for me when I was a new mum, my eldest is now 19, when she was born I had so many people giving me so much advice I found it all very overwhelming, the health nurse I had for my daughter told me the very same thing; "take what you want and leave the rest behind"; these words I also used to hear on a weekly basis at drug re-hab.....so yeah, please don't cease reading/listening, and please do keep coming back......
The more I came here and shared, read other's shares the more I began to see that even though our paths that lead us here may have differences they also have many many similarities, and learning first and foremost that I wasn't alone, wasn't as crazy as I thought I was so relieving, supportive and encouraging for me to 'want to continue' to find a way through my living hell.

:195: Holding you in prayer Minka:195: "hang in there my friend".....and Trust; it does get better; if YOU want it to!!!:1: :42: :42:

[Minka]

i will keep comming here as I need you all. the times that follow will be harsh for me and I must keep a clear head and heart.
And to be honest, who in this world could understand me better then you people? :smile:

[flickchic]

((((((Minka)))))), we need you too!!!:1: :42:

Yes, honesty is the basis of any kind of recovery and friendship; some of your journey will be harsh, there are a lot of rewards along the way however and the further we journey the greater the rewards; I can share that with you in all honesty from my heart:42: :wink:

And to be honest, who in this world could understand me better then you people? :smile:and 'ain't that one of the rewards already; knowing we are not alone!!!!:1:

http://d21c.com/kiddlehopper/12stepgraphics/key.jpghttp://d21c.com/kiddlehopper/12stepgraphics/5mins.jpghttp://d21c.com/kiddlehopper/12stepgraphics/otherplans.jpg

[Minka]

ok, I just woke up, had my coffee and some cigarets and I looked around. The ap. really needs some cleaning yet I cannot motivate me enough, not even with the thought that in half an hour everything could be done. I calculate the hours I have left till I go work and postpone cleaning till the last moment. I cannot function in any other way. I cannot organise my time, my life. I postpone things and I do them in the last moment. Then I do them right and fast but still... some discipline would make my life easier.
I cannot handle money. I don't have the "feeling" for the money. When I have them I spend them. When I don't have is ok too, I improvise a lot.
I look in the mirror and I see my mother. I have her face. So I put make-up.
My sister is pregnant and will have the baby in March. I'll have to go there (1.000 km away) and help her out in the first days. I read somewhere that alcoholism afects 3 generations: the alcoholic, the children of the alcoholic and the children of the children because we don't know how to parent as we have never seen a normal parent in action.
Maybe all these possibilities of getting informed and helped these days could help us reduce this to only 2 generations?
Can internet (ppl from internet) teach one how to be a mother?

[Minka]

today I'm afraid.

[Prescott]

Good Morning Minka, Thanx for sharing, thanx for being here!!! Just wanted to let you know your not alone.

[Minka]

thank you prescott, i am doing better today

I took a decision today. A very healthy one, I am sure. Because I have thought about it on all faces, from all point of views and I KNOW it is a healthy one but something inside of me is yelling that it was for sure too soon, that maybe there was a chance for the whole thing to work out... but for that 1% or, ok, let's say 3% chance I will not make compromises regarding myself and my recorvery.
The road of recovery is not only long, it's harsh too and I think today was the first time when I actively worked on myself.

[Nana]

:45: Minki I don,t have a book on being a good mother.If I had my yougest wouldn,t have had to go to treatment. I a and my son are 15 month,s sober.:29:

I have 10 Grandkid,s and all I can do is show them by my action,s,that being sober is alot better.They remember the way I was. And we have alot of good time,s because of it. And you are so right living normal is HARD. bUT since I found this site I am learning to live again, Hang in thier....Love Nana:29: :195:

[Doraine]

:67: Minka.
Sobriety takes time. It takes time for us to change. You can learn to become a more disciplined person over time. You have to take action to change. You can do it one day at a time. Replace old behaviors with new. Ask to have your character defects removed by your Higher Power. Know that you're not alone we all had to change the behaviors we came in with.

[Minka]

i was thinking: is there ANY guarantee that all those who hit the bottom rock can stand up than?
and second: how do I know that what I consider to be a good, healthy decision, really is one? How do I know I am not trapped in my own mind again?

[flickchic]

Minka, I feel that if you follow the Steps and stick to them then yes, there is a guarantee that those whom hit rock bottom can and will stand up again and better still; stay there!!!!:1:

As has been said; recovery does take time, it takes years to make the mess we get into it can take time to change, however perserverance and the will to do this DOES MAKE IT POSSIBLE!!!:29:

When you make a decision you 'think' is healthy, try listening to your heart instead of your mind, your gut and your heart will tell you the Truth.....trusting our instincts is certainly a learned behaviour when we have had that destroyed in our earlier days, however if you really stop and try and leave the 'thought process out of it' you will come to trust and believe in your own instincts. and if you're not quite sure, reach out and ask for some advice on what you're trying to make a decison on; we cannot make your choices/decisions for you but I'm sure guidance can help when we feel stuck.:wink: I will not make compromises regarding myself and my recorvery.
The road of recovery is not only long, it's harsh too and I think today was the first time when I actively worked on myself.:1: :1: yes, it can feel long and it certainly can be harsh, BUT it can also be very very rewarding, this I have seen and felt for myself!!!! :29: :wink:


Re positive parenting; there is much available on the net for guidance, however none of it is dead set certain right for any one person, different situations, different people/lives; my suggestion on net info is to read, compare, take what you feel may work and leave the rest behind. ......I think a lot of parenting is common sense, balance, love, support and guidance. We all make mistakes, there is no book on the perfect parent; I had decided that I would not be what my parents where to me, however some of that attitude caused me to see-saw in the totally opposite direction; discipline, I was heavily disciplined; I gave none to my first 2 children, well, I was very inconsistent and never followed through on things. For me one of the most important beliefs I hold in parenting is "being emotionally available" to our children.....so much positivity flows from there I feel. I in my addictions wasn't, my parents weren't. Positive talk to our kids is important, positive encouragement, sure we need to discipline if necc., however always telling kids what they "do wrong" and not "what they do right" is a bad thing....(I feel).....making time for them is also important, letting them know how special they are by giving them your time and attention helps them grow with feelings of security and good self esteem.
I don't believe in physical punishment of any kind, however that is my choice.....I use time out, be it on a "time out chair" or time in their room away from everyone else....and consistency is the key to this one, yeah, it's taken me a long while to do that, however I can SEE that it does work. Children learn very early, very quickly what they can and cannot get away with. Another thing, even as newborns is a positive, happy environment, they may not be able to communicate much in adult lingo, but they certainly understand from day dot I believe...angry voices, disharmony, they hear it, they feel the vibes, they feel the tension in mum or whomever is holding bubby one.

Not sure what you have available over there for 'family support', we have new parenting classes via the hospitals, family support centres, the health nurses who come to visit the home etc., perhaps you could look into these things for your sister. A ??, is your sister in recovery??....you mention generations of addicts, therefore I presume you are saying that she is ????

With a new born; my best advice is lot's of love, affection and healthy amounts of attention; without overdoing it....each child is different though and has different needs, and it's human to make mistakes and not understand a new born's needs all the time, immediately, particulalry as a first time parent. A good thing to remember; no pressure, no huge expectations on self and no desire to be perfect!!!!...there is no perfect parent and that ain't going to change!!!!:wink: For some parenting comes more naturally, others it takes longer and more guidance, but that's A OK, cause we don't all learn to drive the car the first time we ever sat behind the steering wheel either!!!! BABY STEPS with love.


hope this helps some. love flick xx:42:

[Minka]

I am not sure if i can trust my heart. she always fell in love with the wrong guy...

My sister is not an A BUT she doens't admit she has a problem about being an adult child of an alcoholic mother. she carries around a lot of hate for our deceised Mom. Yet we're both adicted, to smoking...

I had a cryses today. Early in the morning. I mixed up everything in my head and I almost saw monsters. My heart was beating so fast I was sure it'll explode...
Now it is gone. I am trying to focus on the things I have to do to get out of this situation. This is my priority now. And today I sorted the documents. I'll walk to work today...

[Prescott]

Hi Minka, I wound up in a locked down psych ward due to alcohol and drugs in 1997. After spending the better part of 5 yrs in jail I couldn't stop using and I knew I couldn't go on living the way I was. I was 47 at the time I got clean and sober. These last 9+ yrs have been the best of my life. For the first 18 months I didn't know if I was coming or going and stayed real close to people in the AA & NA program going to 10 to 12 meeting's a week. I got a sponsor when I was 2 weeks clean and he is still my sponsor today. I became friends with those who had some time clean and sober and just followed their path. I asked lots of questions and recieved good guidance. Early recovery was very hard for me. But it did get better and today it has become second nature. I was a very low bottom alcoholic/addict and had allot of wreckage to clean up. "One Day at a Time" is how I did it and if I can do it you can to.
I have seen many just as bad a I was get and stay clean and sober in AA & NA. Keep sharing and hang in there "It does get better" Love John

[Minka]

i didn't find any suport group in my town but I made a research on the net and there is an organisation that deals with adult children, I'll contact them on monday :)

[Minka]

i am in a very good mood today.
:29:

[flickchic]

Hello ((((Minka)))

just dropping in to say hi, let you know you're in my thoughts and prayers.


i am in a very good mood today.
:29::29: :29:

Great to know this!!! Hang in there and yep as John said; " One Day At A Time"...:42: :42:

love Felicity xx:D

[Minka]

I moved out yesterday. For any healthy-minded person this would be the chance. I moved in a company-apartment, I have no costs no nothing, the woman who lived there before (my ex-boss) left everything for me, I don't have to buy anything, not for the kitchen not for nothing.
He drove me to the apartment and was very excited when he saw it. Had suddenly the idea that he should move in with me and rent the apartment where he lives now. Exactly what I have told him one year ago when I begged him that we have a new start. Back than he said no. Now the sudden idea astonished me. I asked why he didn't say YES back then... "well, he said, I thought you were moving into some ugly place, I didn't know it was so big and nice". I started crying and asked him to leave. I cannot believe that an apartment can be more worth than a person - me.
Today in the morning he went for the car-check and came with a changed face to MY apartment, to give me back the bancomat card. His car - my bancomat card :cool: He told me that they guys there discovered some things that need to be repaired at the car. Besides that there is a bill of 190 euros to be paid for a stupid thing he did ... I must mention that I pay his health ensuarance and all.
I felt like telling him: here is the money. Just that he goes and I have my peace. But this never solved our problems, it only made them bigger. So i asked what he wanted from me? He left hitting the door. I panicked. I called him and he is depressed. If I learned the machanism well in the last years, somewhen this evening he'll say he wants to kill himself. I'll give him the money to save his life. And the show will go on...